The difference between the self-taught engineer and the schooled engineer of today
Viktor Farcic: Switching gears, you mentioned that you started with computers when you were seven. Do you have any thoughts about the difference between the self-taught engineers or schooled engineers of today? More broadly speaking, how do you see education in today's world?
Liz Keogh: I didn't know what I didn't know. Back then, I was a little bit more disciplined than a hacker. I have a fairly ordered mind when it comes to programming, so I got taught how to test my software, and I very quickly realized I was second-guessing myself if I wrote the tests afterward. At first, I was writing the tests around empty interfaces, and just making them compile, which, of course, is a lot like TDD now. There were no IDEs back when I started professional coding. We were all working in whatever text editors we had. I think it was Vi or Emacs or something like that, and you compiled on the...